View topic - UNFLINCHING P. G. DOWNES' ANNOTATED COPY

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PostPosted: December 19th, 2019, 6:44 pm 
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Alan Gage: Are there any differences between Moffat and Hornby.

Downes survived to tell his tale. Hornby didn't. Downes followed where others went before. Hornby didn't. Downes traveled from ice out to freeze up. Hornby didn't. Neither planned. "Mostly I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate". Ibid.


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PostPosted: December 19th, 2019, 9:17 pm 
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Alan Gage said: "As for Downes being an armchair critic that might be true." I have yet to find that Downes traveled on snowshoes.


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PostPosted: December 20th, 2019, 9:38 am 
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david demello wrote:
Alan Gage: Are there any differences between Moffat and Hornby.

Downes survived to tell his tale. Hornby didn't. Downes followed where others went before. Hornby didn't. Downes traveled from ice out to freeze up. Hornby didn't. Neither planned. "Mostly I'm just having fun playing devil's advocate". Ibid.


I was speaking of Moffat, not Downes. Certainly not a direct comparison but a lot of similarities.

Quote:
Downes followed where others went before. Hornby didn't.


Hornby might have been the first white person to die in the Thelon sanctuary but he wasn't the first person to live there. Nor was he the first white person to descend it. He followed Tyrel, just like Downes did.

Alan


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PostPosted: December 20th, 2019, 1:14 pm 
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Alan Gage: "I was speaking of Moffat, not Downes. Certainly not a direct comparison but a lot of similarities."

I would like to rummage through the isomorphic appearance between subjects Downes and Hornby. And correct myself.

First: " Downes followed where others went before. Hornby didn't. " is not correct but not fully an error. When necessary Hornby, like others before/after him would create paths to places to others had visited. Downes was loath to visit places that he did not have guidance either in an established route or guidance. Downes wanted guidance, both general and specific. Hornby seemed to be satisfied with general direction as long as there were touchstone to verify his goal. In that way Hornby was similar to Hoare/Knot in wandering around. Easily explained by the differences of iceout and freezeup travel. Which leads me to the following. Hornby would "plan" a long time in advance. Hornby knew where he was going, getting there was the problem, Downes didn't but once decided, preferred to followed others

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PostPosted: December 24th, 2019, 9:39 pm 
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I would like to revisit these Downes excerpts:

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There is evidence that both Hornby and Hoare were absolutely dependent upon the caribou for their survival, thus their individual survival depended upon the caribou presence where they were. Reflecting on both accounts, Hoare was able to hunt caribou successfully to supply two grown men and five dogs even if marginal at times and Hornby failed. Given the unpredictable nature of caribou migration, it is hard to blame lack of intelligent planning/intelligent planning, thus giving strength to the "incalculable factor". But what may be seminal to the Hornby debacle was the consuming of ground bone and hide hair of trapped fur. Information assiduously avoided/ignored by Downes. All three suffered from compacted colon/fecal impaction and were profoundly affected by it. Indeed in their extremist condition they performed various remedies on themselves on each other.

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May 7 pg 121
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PostPosted: December 25th, 2019, 1:30 am 
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excerpt from "unflinching"
"Unflinching Appendix pg 148 Royal Canadian Mounted Police report by Inspector Trundle

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Downes annotation pg 3 "UNnflinching"

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from page 158 "A Thelon Odyssey" A journal of a Barrenlander and Return to the Barrens by W.H.B. Hoare
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Unflinching Appendix pg 147 Royal Canadian Mounted Police report by Inspector Trundle
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PostPosted: December 25th, 2019, 1:51 pm 
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There is a clash between

from page 158 "A Thelon Odyssey" A journal of a Barrenlander and Return to the Barrens by W.H.B. Hoare
When Hoare arrived at Hornby's cabin on May 13, 1929

and

"Unflinching" Appendix pg 147 Royal Canadian Mounted Police report by Inspector Trundle when the RCMP arrived 25 July 1929

and

given that Downes said Wislon discovered the bodies. Downes annotation pg 3 "Unflinching"

on several fronts - The Game is Afoot!


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PostPosted: December 25th, 2019, 2:04 pm 
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Their bodies, left alone by prospectors who discovered the party’s cabin in July 1928, were buried nearby the following summer by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/hornby_john_15E.html

Hoare arrived in 1929


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PostPosted: December 27th, 2019, 12:28 pm 
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david demello wrote:
Their bodies, left alone by prospectors who discovered the party’s cabin in July 1928, were buried nearby the following summer by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

http://www.biographi.ca/en/bio/hornby_john_15E.html

Hoare arrived in 1929



"Unflinching" pg 153 Report of Inspector Trundle
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2019, 12:00 pm 
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Sitting on a box of sunlight soap during a Barren winter.
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PostPosted: January 4th, 2020, 12:35 pm 
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Alan:
Quote:
As usual you arrive too late in the season. You don't have enough food. You're having trouble procuring food from the land. You're at the head of a long canyon with no way out once you start down it. You can still alter your plan and retreat. Instead you push off into the canyon and neither of you come out the other side alive.

Yes, in that instance I would condemn you.


Hornby survived for decades on his knowledge formed by his experiences and I do not condemn him for using his past experience as a guide. On blaming Hornby for bringing others, it is more complicated. I am a believer in being responsible for one choices. Too young to be responsible? If one is old enough to join the army and go to war, one is old enough to go with friends into the wilderness. Being alive is not in and of itself enough. I have known many who were alive and wished to be dead. I have also known many who are dead and wished to live. "Unflinching" was remarkable for its display of compassion and devotion right up to the end of life.


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PostPosted: January 5th, 2020, 8:13 am 
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I need clarify a post I made. It had to do with the proximity of Horny/Bullock winter cave and the Thelon Game Sanctuary. On pg 200 of G. Whalley's book, the cave was located "three or four miles from the head of fro the northern end of Artillery Lake." I believe on the west side

Now on pg 312 of same book, this: The Sanctuary, extending from the east shores of Artillery and Ptarmigan Lakes on the west to Beverly lake on the east,..."

Earlier I said the cave was some miles from the Hanbury River. I believe my new information, assuming Whalley is correct, probably reduces it to the proximity of the Lockhart River/ Artillery Lake junction give or take. Given the capricious nature of man defined "facts on the ground" one wonders.


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PostPosted: January 7th, 2020, 12:20 am 
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Indeed true that Wilson discovered Hornby and his friends bodies, but one line of Wilson's diary reads: ".....Death probably due to illness, followed by starvation" Since the bodies were in "a very bad state of decomposition & probably been dead for a year at least..." is enigmatic. The diary wasn't available., thus so were the references by Christian to their alimentary problems not available. Perhaps Harold Adlard's homemade syringe? Quote source Pg 318 "The Legend of John Hornby", George Walley

one of the remaining mysteries for me is the meaning of "# This is quite incorrect as a note was found at Campbell Lake..." on pg 3 of "Unflinching"


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PostPosted: January 7th, 2020, 9:44 am 
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david demello wrote:

one of the remaining mysteries for me is the meaning of "# This is quite incorrect as a note was found at Campbell Lake..." on pg 3 of "Unflinching"


Didn't Knox and Hoare find a note at Campbell Lake from the prospecting group that had gone down the Thelon earlier that summer? Unless they'd come upstream I don't know how the note could give any information about Hornby but presumably Downes meant the note shows that party was the first to travel down the Thelon since Hornby and crew had disappeared. And assuming they didn't miss the cabin along the way would make them the discoverers.

Alan


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PostPosted: January 7th, 2020, 10:08 am 
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Quote:
Hornby survived for decades on his knowledge formed by his experiences and I do not condemn him for using his past experience as a guide.


Maybe the word barely should be inserted before survived in the above statement.

If Hornby was going to use his past experience as a guide for this trip than he should have been fully aware they would be near starvation and that virtually no fur would be brought out in the spring.

I don't recall Hornby ever having what could be called a "successful" winter when he was in charge, either on his own or leading someone else. I seem to recall multiple journal entries over multiple years dealing with starvation and being so weak he had to crawl out to his fishing hole.

I also don't recall very many, if any, people who were willing to spend a second winter depending on Hornby.

Alan


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